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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.13 11:42:00 -
[1]
Minmatar BS issues are weaponry issues.
TO FIX arties you do not need much. Change track enhancer and track computers from 15% range bonus to 10% range + 10% falloff bonus. Also increase a damage modifier and reduce rof to keep same DPS ( suggestion 50% more damage 33% less rof)
Done... arties are fixed.
AC need some bit of love also, bit more falloff .. 20 km and we are OKish.
Tempest itself should have its mass adjusted to be the LIGHEST battleship! All its close range combat capability nowadays depend on its agility.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.13 11:46:00 -
[2]
On the mass issues. Alignment time has ZERO value unless you can make it align in under 10 seconds. If the ship aligns in 10.5 or 12.. its the same. Why? Because of the stupid MWD trick.
For a align time advantage to be relevant the tempest woudl need to be able to align in likes of 9 seconds.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.13 13:42:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 13/07/2009 13:44:29
It does make a lot of difference. It would reduce optimal raneg by about 10% on all ships while increasing falloff by about 25%.
That would make tempest good sniper up to 135 km then start dropping and rails pass ahead a bit over 142km....rails would start dropping at around 150km and at about 175 km arties would take over ahead of rails again. That would create different engagement advantages.
Also that would increase the value of Rokh range bonus that is sub used today because of the 250 km lock range limit. All that at same time without boosting any tiny bit the apocalypse (because of its tiny falloff) that is already a bit too powerfull.
On another note...
The tactics you suggest would be useful only if CCP reintroduces the concept of alpha strike advantage in game. If 10-12 tempests could kill 1 non tanked at all BS with a lucky volley then your tactics would be useful and interesting.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.13 13:55:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Final note; Minmatar still have the ultimate alphas in game.
IIRC, the tachybaddon holds that distinction.
That and the minmatar should have at LEAST 30-40% advantage over the abaddon. After all the tachyons do not need to stop to reload and have better tracking, and better DPS.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.13 16:37:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 13/07/2009 16:42:00
11K might be unrealistic to expect. We cannot expect a boost to bring alpha striek to levels higher than they were before the HP boosts. So 25% from the HP boost... plus another extra to account for the trimarks... Therefore a 50% is what would bring up tempest to its former role. Then you apply the "CCP factor"and you end up with only 30%.
And the track computer thing is not a nerf to megatron when compared to other ships. The megatron gains a reasonable falloff and loose a reasonable range. Tempest gains from a pathetic base range and gains from an awesome falloff. Apoc looses from a OMFG range and gains from a pathetic falloff.
Its an overall balancing that changes almost nothing for megatron (it will fight more in falloff but with a better falloff curve so only slight reduction) , nerfs apocs (woudl loose effective range.. period), boosts tempest(would loose the least from range, but gain a lot from falloff curve improvement.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.14 01:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ecky X
If you've got a 40 second rate of fire on a Tempest, you're only going to be getting a shot off at one in eight ships. 
With your proposed changes, how much damage will the Pest alpha with Quake?
40 s sounds nice.. lock fire.. eject board other tempest lock fire eject board first temepst lock fire eject...
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.14 15:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Impressive how you manage to ignore the session change timer, the potential cost of having two battleships per player, the advantages of actually flying your tempest, and how easy it would be to destroy an unpiloted Tempest.
Pfff all easily overcome by the LOL factor!
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
You're arguing; I'm only pointing out the facts you missed out when selectively cherry-picking some poorer charecteristics of Projectiles (& Minnie BS) and forgetting others for your analysis compared to Guns of other races.
You might not think EMP is useful for PVP currently but it seems to sell quite well on the markets, so plenty of folks disagree. Or are they all PVE-ing?
But whatever, I know nothing - I've only been playing years as Gallente only. 
/facepalm away mate, if thats what I get for trying to be critically constructive. 
The point is minmatar selective damage is a MYTH!
T2 ammo has FIXED damage type.
IF you want to choose you can drop the base damage (compare base damage of EMP against antimatter) adnt hen get a half em , quarter explo quarter kin... or a 2/3 thermal one (that is in fact the only useful damage type choice) or a 2/3 explosive one that si already 3rd ammo on damage ammount (that means pathetica base damage).
IF projectile ammo had a 2/3 EM top damage and a 2/3 explosive SAME top damage then damage selection would be real.
As it is now isonlya a MYTH!
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 20/07/2009 11:45:06
Things I find funny. The only BS with 2 damage bonus is the lowest damage one on most realistic scenarios.....
Very important, The tempest use to be powerful.. that before CCP started to nerf everything that increased versatility on ships. NErfing ECM on non specialized ships.. nerfed tempest.. nerfing NOS, nerfed tempest, nerfingspeed.. nerfed tempest, overheat on tackling gear nerfed tempest, nerfing of track computers with scripts nerfed tempest (the sniper that need most from its mid slots), nerfing of Sensor Boosters with scripts nerfed tempest (shortest lock range).
Locus rig nerf... nerfed tempest (was sniper that needed most the extra range).
When of the speed nerf CCP made tempest weight MORE than most other battleships. And made it less agile than caldari ones...
A lot of combined nonsense here.
It is obvious how to fix arties, in fact more than one option.. i ccp cannot see that they are blind of simply lazy... sorry but true.
On the AC issue, it might be a bit more complicated since they cannot dislodge the blasters. My personal view would be.. increase falloff to 20 km base and increase tracking .. a LOT. It will be the lowest damage of all large close range guns, but with highest tracking. That would give it 2 roles.
First role would depend of CCP unscrewing the mass on the tempest and making the tempest as light as the lighest battleship. Also mustbe the most agile. PERIOD! Then tempest would be able to try to outtrack enemy large guns close range with AB and scrambler while not suffering so much from the transversal. That is a FOCUSED and limited advantage.. not overpowered at all, and match the NEED for pilot skill of minmatar ships.
Other role would be as the Battleship that better deals with smaller ships. With superior trackign and its 2 extra high slots a tempest would become the worse enemy of commandships and even hacs to some limited degree.
There are TONS of eveidence that Projectiles sux and that tempest SUEPR sux. THere are tons of way to fix it... its just up to CCP take 2 people for 2-3 days and select 2-3 solutiosn test each one on test server.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
hence if i wanna fight at long range i train amarr.
but if i wanna do decent dps at close and dont lose them all at longer range i fly matar, the falloff bonus you purpose on the AC and a improved AC will do that w/o ship bonus changes
Now here's the problem: I can make a Dominix that will outdamage your Tempest at any range, with an almost identical tank, the same number of utility slots, better tracking and better ability against small targets.
The falloff bonus means that at least at long ranges it is possible to outdamage this Dominix with a Tempest.
1st drones can be shot.
2nd im speaking about balancing turrets
3rd lowering tempest DPS for some falloff would mean the tempest can get owned even better at close range to get a tiny advantage outside warp disruptor range, wow so great try again.
4rd boosting AC dmg will give a chanche to that tempest and falloff scaling with tier would have a similar effect than changing the tempest bonus.
1. And? Turrets can be tracking disruptored.
2. Just throwing that example out to prove a point.
3. WTB 13km Warp Disruptor
4. Increasing falloff generically means that you can end up making other ships too good. You have to remember that if you want a short range brawler ship, you still have the Maelstrom and the Typhoon, and also that you wouldn't try flying say an Apocalypse as a brawler.
When CCP created the maesltrom they said it woudl be the sniper ship. But CCP failed on doing anythign decent on that. It has useless bonus for long range whiel beign too fat fro close range (and shield tanked on close range where you need tackle is a 3@!#(!@#(! )
Maelstrom shoudl be made the sniper. Change bonus to 7.5% DAMAGE bonus. And to 10% extra SHield HitPoint . Done an EXCELENT sniper.
Then make tempest the most agile ship and improve AC so it can be the close range ship.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Seishi Maru
stuff
I've looked, but I can't find CCP saying that the Maelstrom is supposed to be a sniper anywhere 
The only thing I found relating to the Maelstrom's role is this devblog, which just says how it is supposed to tank.
Increasing the Maelstrom's damage by giving it a 7.5% damage bonus would be.... painful.
It is already one of the highest damage ships when fitted for long range, out damaging even the Apocalypse if the Apoc is not fitted with 8 Tachyons (which most people don't because of the high fitting requirements).
and increasing shield hitpoints would be hard to balance, as you would have to fiddle around with the shield recharge times.
The final reason to not re-task the Maelstrom is that is an undeniably successful ship, with a real niche as an active shield tanker.
I have yet to see a role for the Tempest that I couldn't replicate with other ships, and do just as well, if not better.
The forum thread ont he balance of tier 3 BS by tuxford. There was stated that all but the hyperion would be sniper focused. And when people complained about maelstrom sluginess that was also the response.
And sorry but the maelstrom is not a successful ship. Its an" I avoided a complete failure" ship. Compare to the abaddon success. MAelstrom is NOT a high damage ship. With 3 damage mods it matches the damage of an abaddon with 2 damage mods. That with WORSE range and with a less useful tank (resist > shield boost bonus). Also that with a tiny cargo hold for a ship that eats cap like mad because of the shield booster .. a cargo hold that is shared with ammo for the most ammo hungry of ALL ships in eve.
Maelstrom would need to have SAME damage as abaddon with same number of damage mods (that because it has MORE drones to start with!) 7.5% Damage/level would result basically on same damage as it has now but a reasonable alpha strike, that would make it GOOD for sniping. A HP bonus would make it able to resist doomsdays as well as a rokh. A resist bonus would be even better.. but CCP would never give us that.
Sorry but maelstrom is NOT a good ship. The only good minmatar battleship is the typhoon.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:12:00 -
[12]
Just an illustration of how the maelstrom is not a GOOD ship.. only a mediocre one.
Abaddon clasical setup:
8 MP II Ammar navy MF
100MN MWD II Heavy Cap Booster II BEst named web and disruptor
2 Heat Sink II 2 1600RT 1 DC (named) 2 EANM II
3 trimark
classical 75M most damage drones
207K EHP 1025 dps at 15 km + 10 (half damage 25km)
Cap stable without MWD on
Best you can make with maelstrom to try match this
8 800mm II with rep fleet EMP
100MN MWD II best named web and disruptor HCap Booster II 1 XLarge Shield Booster II 1 Invul field II
Best named Damage control 3 GyroII 1 slot you can put somethign that uses no CPU (i prefer nanofiber)
3 Ogre II 2 hammer II
2 operation solidifier 1 cap safeguard rig ( the rigs are more variable on the maesltrom.. just doing a tank one to throw out the myth that maesltrom is a very good tanker)
1058 dps 3km+20 (half damage 23km) 60k EHP tanks 538 dps for 3 min 40s with MWD off
Do you really believe this maesltrom is even remotely as good as the abaddon? It has inferior defenses, inferior offense, worse capacitor dependency.
Maelstrom is NOT a good tank ship on normal combat conditions, and is NOT a very high damage ship. On all accounts is inferior to abaddon.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.27 11:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ruzel
I agree entirely. Shelved all my Minmatar Battleships after finally giving up. Using Gallente now and things have never been better.
When i first started playing i was under the impression Minmatar would produce excellent ships because they didn't spend a great deal of time making the ships 'pretty' like other races, but it turns out Minmatar engineers are just bad, and the ships are ugly because they're incompetant.
They do make some good frigates, so there's that. I just wouldn't recommend going too far past there. Every other race has better options in large ships.
If you go back to Red moon rising.. before the tier 3 existed. Back then Minmatar battleships were good. Nos worked so tempest high slots were mighty (neuts are okish at most when compared to old NOS).. ECM was useful on non caldari ships,, so Tempest extra mid was useful. Ships had less Hitpoints... so Alpha strike was useful....
T2 ammo was not nerfed.. so the range inferiority of tempest was a no concern...
NAVY AMMO WAS NOT ALL AROUND! So everyone had to use t2 short range ammo.. (at t2 ammo minmatar ammo matches hybrids.. but the T1 and faction one are FAR FAR inferior. Therefore minmatar still have to use T2 ammo with tracking penalties while other races don't
Back then you could specialize a ship.. so typhoons speed was awesome.. back then there were only 20 km points and webs could not overheat to 13 km.. therefore kiting in a tempest was more effective. Back then Our battleships took 33% less damage from EM than they do now (while other races is only 25% difference)...
Back then caldari batleships didn't weight less than minmatar ones....
Well have not been 3 good years these last 3 for minmatar battleships...
Read all this CCP, and dare to say that minmatar battleships are not suffering...
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.28 19:44:00 -
[14]
But never forget the EMP must match AM base damage. The fact that carbonized lead is a suprior ammo is APTHETIC excuse of a compensation. Long range t1 ammo is uses in like 0.5% of time.. while short range T1 (specially faction ) is used 80%+ of time.
So a 10% advantage at 0.5% of time for a 10% disadvantage at 80% of time DOE SNOT MATCH!!!
Its enough that EMP has a crapy super split damage type.
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